Glory & Grit : Season 2, Episode 9 - The Hug That Never Happened
Show Notes:
Summary
Sometimes forgiveness is described as though it should make everything simple: forgive, reconcile, restore the relationship, and move on.
Mark Winter's story is more complicated.
Mark grew up with a father he loved but also feared. His father's unpredictable anger, verbal abuse, and physical abuse shaped the way Mark saw himself long after childhood ended. Even after becoming a pastor, criticism could return him emotionally to the little boy who believed that if he made a mistake, he was a mistake.
Years later, Mark began seeing genuine changes in his father—but trust did not return automatically. Then, while preparing for back surgery, Mark accepted an invitation to be prayed over. Instead of the physical healing he expected, years of buried anger surfaced.
On the way home, Mark felt a prompting: Call your father and hurry.
He eventually made the call. Father and son forgave, apologized, and agreed to begin again. Mark told his father that the next time they saw each other, he wanted the hug he'd missed growing up.
Three hours later, his father died unexpectedly.
Their story becomes the doorway into a larger conversation about what forgiveness does—and what it doesn't do. Mark and Stephanie distinguish forgiveness from reconciliation and restored trust, make room for necessary boundaries, and talk about what healing can look like when the past cannot be changed.
In This Episode
Growing up loving and fearing the same parent
How childhood wounds followed Mark into adulthood and ministry
Seeing his father's spiritual change but struggling to trust it
The prayer meeting that unexpectedly uncovered buried anger
“Call your father and hurry”
The final conversation and the hug that never happened
Key Takeaways
Forgiveness doesn't require pretending the wound wasn't real.
Forgiveness and reconciliation are different decisions.
An unsafe person does not automatically regain access because they have been forgiven.
Trust can require time, changed behavior, wisdom, and healthy boundaries.
Healing doesn't necessarily erase memory; it can change the memory's power over the present.
A scar does not disqualify someone from God's love or purpose.
About Rev. Mark Winter
Rev. Mark Winter served nearly 40 years as a pastor and evangelist before retiring in 2023. He formed One Man Show Ministries in 1999, traveling across the United States portraying a wide range of biblical characters as well as modern-day men wrestling with purpose, faith, and identity, while also delivering impactful programs tailored for children.
A published author, Mark has many articles and six books to his credit, including his most recent, "If I'm the Temple of God, Why are My Pillars Cracked?"
Mark lives in Ft. Worth, TX, with his wife of 43 years, Laura. They have three adult children and three grandchildren.
CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION
Visit the Companion Page to reflect on forgiveness, boundaries, and restored trust, along with a Truth to Carry, Prayer Prompt, reflection questions, and the Name the Brick grit practice.
Transcript:
Stephanie (00:00)
Sometimes forgiveness gets talked about as though it's one simple decision. You forgive, you reconcile, everything gets put back together. And then somehow the hurt just disappears. But real life is usually more complicated than that. Today's guest, Mark Winter, grew up loving his father and fearing him.
Years later, Mark was a pastor preaching about grace and forgiveness while still carrying wounds from the little boy who had learned making mistake meant he was a mistake. Then a prayer meeting he thought was about healing his back uncovered something entirely different.
What followed was a prompting he almost ignored. One phone call and a reconciliation neither Mark nor his father knew would be their last.
Today we're talking about forgiveness, reconciliation, boundaries, restored trust, and the kind of healing that doesn't erase the past, but changes the hold it has on you.
This is Glory and Grit, where faith meets real life. I'm Stephanie. Let's get into it.
Stephanie (01:33)
Mark, welcome to Glory and Grit and I'm really happy to have you back and to continue the conversation that we started with our previous interview.
Mark Winter (01:44)
I am happy to be here and I am ready to go. So let's get this party started.
Stephanie (01:52)
Awesome, I want to begin the conversation on your father. Growing up you said that it could be hard not knowing which part of your father was gonna walk through the door first. And you also talked about how you
thought that if you made a mistake then you were that mistake. So I want you to take me back to that time. What was happening in your relationship
Mark Winter (02:17)
Okay.
Stephanie (02:18)
with your father that taught you to see yourself that way, that you were a mistake?
Mark Winter (02:26)
Well, I I tell people I had a complicated relationship with my dad because in many ways he was a good father. He was an ethical man. He taught me basic values. He taught me how to show up on time and to be responsible. He played with me. He was my little league baseball coach. He taught me basic life skills.
As a little boy, I looked up to him and I loved him. But because of his abuse and his uncontrollable anger at times, the little boy couldn't filter that and set boundaries. And so I grew up thinking, well, my dad loves me, but sometimes he acts like he hates me. And that was very confusing. But he was a very angry man. He had a
horrible temper when he got angry and little things could set him off. If he was frustrated about something at work or if he couldn't get something done when he thought it needed to be done, he would just fly into a rage. And not only was he verbally abusive, but he was physically abusive too. And I'm not talking about a little spanking or a SWAT on the behind. He would go into rages where he'd whip off his belt and just raise welts on your back.
So I grew up in genuine fear of my father at times. you know, we all wanted my I had three sisters, we all wanted to hide when he would got that angry. So there were times when if I couldn't understand something he was trying to teach me, he would call me a dummy or say something like, Are you stupid? And so I grew up thinking, well, if I make a mistake, then I'm I'm just stupid.
Irredeemably stupid. I just can't understand this. I don't get it. So as a consequence, I backed off of certain challenges. I just shrugged my shoulders and said, Well, I'm never going to understand this because my dad told me I wouldn't. So I I absorbed just about
Stephanie (04:34)
Mm.
Mark Winter (04:35)
everything he said negatively about me when I was a kid.
Stephanie (04:40)
right. When you became an adult and then eventually a pastor, what happened to all that hurt that you had from those years?
Mark Winter (04:53)
Yeah, for the longest time it stayed there because I did not deal with it. You know, the psychologists talk about the inner child and that was a a big popular concept. I think it got started maybe in the nineties or something, and it kind of resonated with me. I was like, I I have this inner little boy in me that's still hurting and still afraid. And so, you know, when I got into ministry, I felt genuinely called by God. But
you know, honestly, in church, there are still a lot of people that are angry and abusive and unfiltered. And so what w as a pastor, if I got criticized for something, I went right back to feeling like that little kid again. Like
Stephanie (05:41)
Yeah.
Mark Winter (05:42)
I I I would withdraw or I would get angry.
But I would stuff the anger down and felt like there were times when, well, I must be a bad pastor because I'm getting criticized for this, that, or the other. It took a long time for me to finally realize that even though I make mistakes, like you said, that I'm not a mistake, that I can make mistakes and still own them and move on from them without beating myself up. And then there are other times when I realized.
Hey, I feel like I made a sound decision. My judgment was good in this case. And even if somebody doesn't like it, that's fine. you cannot like something
Stephanie (06:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (06:32)
that I do. And if I've sorted it out with God, and also I have a wife who's very honest with me. So
Stephanie (06:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (06:40)
I can
go to her, she's a very godly woman. I can say, was I wrong here?
And she'll say, No, I think you were perfectly right.
Then I'm like, okay, good, good. But there have been times too when, you know, she said, yeah, I think you messed up there. And I was like, okay. So I would, you know, either try to reconcile with somebody or ask for forgiveness. if that wasn't possible, just say, Lord, I have to release this to you and move on.
Stephanie (07:07)
Mm. It's a good thing when you have someone there that you can bounce things off of to help you see the best part of yourself and not always accepting what the world tries to demonize about you.
Mark Winter (07:19)
I I think it's
very important. Yes. I think it's very important to have whether it's your spouse or a friend or a brother or a sister, a fellow church member who you can trust, who's a mature disciple that you can go to when you're having questions or doubts or struggles and share that without judgment, but with honesty.
Stephanie (07:47)
Right.
Mark Winter (07:47)
I think we all need
unvarnished honesty in our relationships. The relationships that are with people who are close to us. What does the Bible say the wounds of a brother are more faithful than the kisses of an enemy? So being wounded by somebody that you trust still doesn't feel good, but you can say, you know what,
I need to really look at that because I trust, I trust your judgment on.
Stephanie (08:17)
In our pre-interview you told me about your father retiring and how he had returned to church and you also talked about a men's retreat and seeing the spiritual changes in him. So let's go back to that moment. because I know you didn't quite believe it at first. So when did you first realize that your father might actually
Mark Winter (08:40)
Yeah, I didn't.
Stephanie (08:43)
be changing?
Mark Winter (08:46)
Yeah, that's a great question because you know, we grew up in church that my mom and dad were very loyal church members, but I honestly I don't remember us having a devout Christian environment in our house. We didn't pray together, we didn't say grace, we didn't read the Bible. we just went to church like lots of Americans did back in the sixties.
And then, you know, what'd you learn in Sunday school? we learned about Samson or Noah. good, good. And that was it. I'm not saying my parents' relationship with God was fake or not genuine, but they just didn't talk about it and they didn't really talk about it with us. I guess they thought we were getting religious instruction in the church, and that was good enough. Well, when I became a pastor, my parents started going back to church. They had dropped out.
And they started going back and we actually started talking about the Bible and church matters and faith and that kind of thing, kind of in a superficial way, but it was there.
Stephanie (09:50)
Mm.
Mark Winter (09:53)
my dad
retired when he was in his early 70s, and he had been told by some men in his church that he should really go on this retreat.
By the way, it's a worldwide retreat. It's called the walk to Emmaus. And various denominations have variations of this certain retreat. And there's the retreat is for men
and there's retreat for women. They go separately. But it's a 72-hour retreat
and it's designed to introduce you in a very real way to God's grace. So he went and I thought my dad was still a little hard-edged, you know.
And I thought he's gonna hate this. It's gonna be touchy feely. And they're gonna be doing things that'll make him uncomfortable, I'm sure. Well, when that retreat finished on Monday morning, he was in my church office just gushing about it. And I thought, Who are you? Are you you are you sure you're my dad? I mean,
Stephanie (10:57)
Ha ha ha
Mark Winter (10:59)
because he was talking very openly about God and
the the emotional impact it had. And honestly, Stephanie, I was skeptical because I thought, how can one weekend retreat undo a lifetime of abuse and mess that we s kind of still had in our relationship? Well, things progressed. my dad still had, as I said, some rough edges. And every once in a while he would
insult me and disguise it as humor, which I didn't really appreciate.
he still gave me unoffered advice, which I know a lot of parents do. But at that point, I was like, I'm just tired of this man doing kind of the same things that he's been doing all my life. And so I decided to back off a little bit and give some distance between our relationship.
Which over time he noticed. And he actually called me one night and said,
Stephanie (12:03)
Mm.
Mark Winter (12:04)
Can we talk about this? I know there's a aloofness from you and it and I want to try to right this And so we talked, we had
a good
conversation. And I thought, well, maybe things could change. Now, somewhere in all of this, I never really thought, well, I need to for forgive my dad. I just thought,
It's too hard, it's too difficult. There's too much hurt and pain and abuse.
Stephanie (12:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (12:30)
And so I never really considered forgiving him, to be honest. So that was kind of
my part, being a pastor who preached on forgiveness and taught on forgiveness.
Stephanie (12:40)
Yeah.
Mark Winter (12:41)
Well, about that time I was in a small town. I had my own little church, and another pastor who I was friends with learned that
I had some.
back problems. I was going to go in for some back surgery. And he came to the parsonage one
Stephanie (12:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (12:58)
day and knocked on the door and said, Hey Mark, I've got some guys in my church. they're men's prayer group, and they would love to pray for you tomorrow morning if you're available. And I said, sure. So I walked over to this office where this guy had his business and they we introduced each other. I mean, the pastor introduced us to each other and then
They asked me to sit down,
hands on me, started praying. And all I can say
is I felt something shaking, not physically, but something
Stephanie (13:29)
Yeah.
Mark Winter (13:30)
profound was happening in my soul. And unbidden and unexpected by me, I started crying. Now, most of us
Stephanie (13:40)
Mm.
Mark Winter (13:40)
dudes do not like to cry, especially in front of other dudes. But there I was just
Stephanie (13:44)
Ha ha ha.
Mark Winter (13:48)
crying ugly cry. And they were like, what is going on? You know, is your back hurting? And I said, no,
no. And I spill I didn't know these guys. I knew the pastor, but didn't know these. I just spilled out all this stuff. I said, I've been holding this in for so long. I have this hatred and bitterness in my soul. And I think God's working on me right now to release it. And they they led me with God's help, of course, to forgive my dad right there. And
I felt a release like I had never felt before. And I walked
Stephanie (14:23)
Right.
Mark Winter (14:23)
home, practically flew home. And as I was going home, I felt the Lord speaking deep into my spirit, saying, Call your father and hurry. And I was like, what? I I'd never really, I mean, I'd heard God's call a couple of times in my life. One very clearly when he called me into ministry. another time when when
even before that when I returned to church and felt a deep, deep encounter with God. And that's actually that period of time where I received Christ as Lord and clear too. Call your father and hurry. Well, you think as as the the devout, faithful pastor I am, I immediately went to my house and called my dad. No, I did not. I wrestled with God for about half an
Stephanie (15:11)
Ha ha ha.
Mark Winter (15:13)
hour.
Because I thought, my dad is gonna blow me off. He's gonna say, why can't you just, you know, move on? Or, it wasn't that bad. Your childhood wasn't that bad. I thought of all these scenarios where he would just dismiss everything. But I finally called him because,
you know, I have learned that when I get into a wrestling match with God like Jacob did, I do not win that wrestling match. I've never won a wrestling match with God.
Stephanie (15:43)
I don't think any of us do.
Mark Winter (15:44)
Yeah, exactly. None of us do. But I I called my dad and he answered and I told him what had happened at this prayer meeting. He listened very patiently and quietly. I told him that I had forgiven him, truly forgiven him. And then I said something that I didn't expect to say. I said, Dad, would you forgive me? And he said, for what?
And I said, for hating you and and withholding
Stephanie (16:14)
when you got on the phone, did you
think you were gonna say that
Mark Winter (16:17)
No, I I I I mean, I I knew I was gonna tell him that I had forgiven him, but I wasn't expecting to ask him to forgive me, which he did. And and then he said, Let's mend fences, let's just start over in our relationship. The last thing I remember telling him was this, Dad, when I was growing up, you every once in a while you'd flip me a nickel or a dime if I pulled weeds in the yard and
When I brought my report card home, because I was a good student, he'd say, Well, good job, and that was it. Every once in a while he'd pat me on the shoulder, but he was not a physical as far as love and intimacy and gestures. He was not a loving
Stephanie (17:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (17:01)
guy. I said, I miss that growing up. So whenever I see you from now on, I want to give you a big hug. And he said, He he was a Texan like me, had this real slow draw.
And he said, Well, son, I don't like hugging other men, but I'll make an exception
Stephanie (17:20)
Yeah.
Mark Winter (17:20)
So I hung up the phone. I was elated. I whooped and I hollered, as we in the South say. Woo! And I called my wife in and I
told her what had happened. And we celebrated. Three hours later, my mother called out of the blue crying.
I said, Mom, what's wrong? And she told me through the tears that my father had come in from outside doing some yard work, laid down on the living room floor and died of a heart attack.
Stephanie (17:57)
Mm.
Mark Winter (18:00)
I was simultaneously crushed and full of joy. Crushed because I had lost my father. I wasn't going to get the hug. full of joy because
Stephanie (18:13)
Mm.
Mark Winter (18:14)
God had arranged that reconciliation. And there have been times, I I hate to admit this, where I have not obeyed God. This is one glad one time I'm glad I did obey God. And not to
Not to make myself sound all that in a bag of chips, but I did it because
I thought in the end, what do I have to lose? and I I gained a lot. But I I do know, I do believe that when I get to heaven, my dad and I will hug. and maybe I've pictured this, I'm I I'm hoping for a group hug.
with Jesus and
my dad and my mom and me and my whole family and all the saints of heaven. I I just
I see it as a big group
Stephanie (19:04)
Let me slow you down for a
second right there. Was
Mark Winter (19:08)
Sure,
Stephanie (19:09)
there anything that he said to you that you really needed to hear from him?
Mark Winter (19:18)
Yeah, he said he was proud of me. He said, I didn't really tell you this much when you were growing up, but I want you to know I'm really proud of you. I'm proud of your calling and your ministry. And I'm just proud to have you as my son. And on this walk to Emmaus retreat, we wrote letters to these guys, to these to our loved ones. And he after this retreat, he wrote a letter back to me.
And it was a very short letter. And I would expect that from my dad, because he's not gushy. But he he said, I I know I
haven't told you this enough, but I'm proud of you and I love you. And he signed it, Dad. I have that note to this day. I'll never get rid of that note.
Stephanie (19:59)
Mm. Were you able to say everything to him that you thought you needed to get off your chest and and have him know?
Mark Winter (20:07)
Yes.
Yeah. I had a feeling I had a feeling that if he hadn't been taken from us that we would have refined that reconciliation. And honestly, I I'm sure in some ways he would have rubbed me the wrong way even then. But then I had the power of forgiveness. I knew what it felt like. And I could I could actually
tell him, hey, that hurts.
I would prefer not to hear you say that anymore and and move on. Could I say something to people out there who don't have the ability to reconcile anymore? Because I've had so many people come up
Stephanie (20:42)
Yes, please do.
Mark Winter (20:44)
and tell me I'm not able to do this because my mom or dad have passed or okay. And and some people w that have hurt you and you try to reconcile with them, they say, I don't even want to talk to you. And so that hurts. And I get that. I understand that because
There have been people in my life that have we've been crossways with each other. And I have offered an ala branch or reconciliation, and they have refused it. that does hurt. I'm not gonna lie, and you know it hurts, those of you out there who have been through that. But here's what I would say to you is that God does not want us to live in.
regret or guilt or anger or bitterness. And it may take time to process all of that. But in the end,
I would urge those folks to truly forgive somebody. That doesn't mean forgetting what happened, but the by the biblical word means
Stephanie (21:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (21:53)
to release.
It means to cancel a debt. I mean in the Lord's Prayer, we we pray, forgive us our debts. And so that's literally what it means. It means to say, you know what? I don't want to live this way anymore. I don't want to live in this anger and this I don't want to have this weight on my shoulder
Stephanie (22:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (22:14)
anymore, this monkey on my back, so to speak. So
I'm going to ask God to help me release this so I can move on and live in freedom. And that's what we're supposed
Stephanie (22:25)
Right.
Mark Winter (22:26)
to live like as Christians, because scripture tells us it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. That's why He came to release us from that. And so I would say, you know, if you need a Christian counselor or a trusted friend, or you just need to hammer this out in the prayer closet.
get get it worked out so you can move on in freedom.
Stephanie (22:54)
Thank you, thank you. I'm very glad you added that on for those people who don't have that opportunity to get that forgiveness back. I wanna ask you how did grief and gratitude exist together for you?
Mark Winter (23:13)
It was a strange mixture. I describe it as the eye of the hurricane. There was a storm of grief. I and I'll be honest with you, I was a little angry at God for for a short order. I was like, Why'd
you why'd you let us reconcile and then you take him away from me? I don't have the answer to that because God has mysterious and deep ways. but there was there was I went through some depression there because
I'd lost my dad and I lost him suddenly and unexpectedly. but I did have gratitude. Once I processed all that, I all I could say was, Thank you, God, that we were able to do that and that you arranged that. I even found out at his funeral, a man came up to me. By then my father and mother had
built a house on our church campgrounds. And my dad was taking
Stephanie (24:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (24:11)
care of the trees and the shrubs there at the camp because he was kind of an amateur nurseryman. And they deeded this house over to the camp. They had they had in mind all along that they would live there as long as they were living. And then the house would go back to the camp. So that's another thing that I was like, whoa, my my dad and mom are actually showing
How crisis affecting their lives through their generosity and such. And they would meet campers there and talk to the boys and girls and the teenagers. And it was, it was really a neat
relationship. But this, this guy came up to me and he said, Hey, I want to tell you something. The day, just hours before your dad died, and right after that conversation you had with him on the phone, he told me all about it.
This guy was an electrician for the camp and he and my dad had struck up a friendship. And he he went to my dad not knowing that we had this conversation. And he said, Bill, I need to talk to you. I'm having a you've raised three kids. I'm having trouble with my teenage son. I mean, we're we just can't seem to see eye to eye. We're arguing. and my he said, What my dad sat me down on a bench.
And he told me what had happened between you and him. And he said, you know,
Stephanie (25:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (25:33)
I made a lot of mistakes raising my children. And all I can tell you is, love your son. Let him know that you love him unconditionally, even if he rolls his eyes and doesn't return the the love. You keep telling him, I love you, I'm proud of you.
I'm here for you. If you ever need to talk, I am available 24/7. And he said, Your dad gave me the greatest pep talk I've had in a long time. And I felt a lot of hope and
Stephanie (26:07)
Ha ha ha.
Mark Winter (26:08)
a lot of strength after he told me that story. And then he said, Your son, if you keep doing that, he will come back to you. Mine dead today. And that's, you know, that just hours later
Stephanie (26:21)
Awww
Mark Winter (26:22)
he died. So
God God did a lot of amazing things that day. God always does amazing things, even behind the scenes that we often don't see. But that day, that got
Stephanie (26:30)
Always. Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (26:33)
that day God showed off for sure.
Stephanie (26:38)
Wow,
You were
still forward
to having your back surgery and then now that we look back on that, what did you come to understand about the healing that you had originally gone into that prayer group for?
Mark Winter (26:56)
Yeah, and I was I was very open to God healing my back that day. And when I processed all that, I tell people now, God did not heal my back that day miraculously, but he healed something far more important. And that was a broken relationship. And that's what God specializes in is restoring, renewing, rebuilding. And so
I went into back surgery a week after my father died. It was a tough week, let me tell you. and the
the surgeon did a great job and patched me up and I I moved on. But healing takes on different forms in scripture. When you know, when we talk about healing from God, we usually think of miraculous healing, you know, cancers cured and and
Stephanie (27:50)
Yeah, thanks.
Mark Winter (27:51)
the blindness is restored and
I thoroughly believe, I thoroughly believe Jesus did those miracles while he walked the earth. And I do believe that God still works those kind of miracles today. Maybe not as often as some of the showy televangelist claim, but I've seen incredible
Stephanie (28:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (28:11)
miracles behind the scenes that aren't flashy, they're quiet. But healing also
in the Bible
what the word means is being restored to wholeness. You can still be sick and be healed whole inside. And I've noticed I knew I I've known a lot of people who faced deadly diseases, faced incredible hardship, and yet they had this healing on the inside, this wholeness that couldn't be broken because they had Christ at the center. Christ is our healing.
So we we have to understand that
If we have Christ in our soul, in our heart, in our life, that we are not sick. We're not sick. We're we're whole. if we're broken in our body here, we can still be whole up here and in our heart. And as Paul said in the New Testament, whether we live or die, we we do it all for Christ.
We are in Christ. Christ is working at all times in our body, our minds, and our spirits. And as we know, as Christians, one day we will be thoroughly healed and whole. And that's the best
Stephanie (29:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (29:26)
news of all. We'll have new bodies, new spirits, new minds, and we will live forever and ever with no tears, no disease, no
hardship.
Just worship and glory and praise. And now I'm preaching because that's who I am.
Stephanie (29:42)
Tha
It's a force of habit, isn't it?
Mark Winter (29:45)
Ha ha ha.
Stephanie (29:50)
Well, it's I I always tell people if you don't see a miracle
in your life, you need to open take your blinders off because God still performs miracles every day. Stop looking for the big majestic things and look for all the little miracles that
Mark Winter (30:04)
Yes, yes.
Stephanie (30:06)
He performs every day.
Mark Winter (30:10)
Telling you. I am telling you, they're all around us. look in the mirror. There's a miracle staring at you from that mirror. God planted his image in you, and that is a miracle in itself. I was walk taking my morning walk today
and noticing all kinds of wildlife around me. And I'm a nature nerd. I believe that God speaks through the creation magnificently.
The stars in space and the lowliest snail speaks of the glory of God. And if you don't get the miracle you
want, and some of us don't, we can still look at the miracles
of God and praise him.
Stephanie (30:53)
that's right. you've preached about grace for years, I'm sure as most pastors have, but what's the difference between the grace you had to preach and then the grace you had to actually live when your father passed or during that whole time with your father?
Mark Winter (31:14)
Boy, you're you're going to meddling now, aren't you?
Stephanie (31:17)
Ha ha ha!
Mark Winter (31:18)
There's a connection. There is a connection between what I preached and what I experienced. But
Stephanie (31:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (31:28)
when I finally practiced, when we practice and experience grace, instead of just talking and studying about it, it builds a a
beautiful bridge between the two. Cause I know some people who and Christians who say, yeah, grace, grace, grace. But until you really experienced it, knowing that God loves you without hesitation or reservation, it makes a huge difference in how you live, how you see other people. we're living in a very divided nation right now, as you know.
And I think if we could just experience
Stephanie (32:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (32:09)
that beautiful grace that God wants to shower upon us, we would start seeing each other as people worthy of love and not people that we just fight and and battle with all the time. we we've got to
see each other as brothers and sisters and not as enemies.
Stephanie (32:31)
I love that. I love that. I had something in my mind I was thinking but it just kinda skipped away, so I'll just move on.
Mark Winter (32:40)
Yeah, I do that happens to me all the time. Yeah, you're too young for that to happen.
Stephanie (32:46)
I'm older than I
Mark Winter (32:46)
Ha ha.
Stephanie (32:47)
look. What did forgiveness change for you?
Mark Winter (32:57)
it's changed a lot. I have an older sister we've had relationship struggles too over the years. We didn't see eye to eye on much of anything, religion, politics, lots of things. And there were times when she would back off from the family and and such. And just about, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago, I don't know what happened.
Because we didn't have this big aw moment. But she started re-entering my life and telling me that she loved me. And I said, you know, I thought you were mad at me. because I would honestly, there were times I would bait her and goad her into getting angry. And that was wrong of me. And we we forgave each other and moved on from that. And it's opened up a whole new relationship for us. So
practicing forgiveness is not as scary as I thought it would be. A lot of people say, well, if I forgive them, that means what they did to me was okay. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. you know, you can have, you can be hurt by someone and still forgive them. It doesn't mean that you have to
let them
back in your life necessarily. You can maintain a distance or a boundary if they're still abusive, but you can release that.
Need to harbor hatred and anger, maybe even thoughts of violence, you know, and you're daydreaming like, I hope something bad happens.
No, it's releasing all that and
praying and hoping for their good. And the highest good is coming to God and repenting and and living
Stephanie (34:40)
Mm.
Mark Winter (34:42)
with Christ. So that's you know, try y'all try that if if you're
having a hard time forgiving somebody, say, you know what? I'm gonna pray that they'd
Stephanie (34:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (34:52)
find Christ and just keep praying
that and it'll it'll it'll lighten your spirit because you know that the prayer
of a righteous person availeth much.
Stephanie (35:04)
and the forgiveness is more for you than it is for them.
Mark Winter (35:09)
Yeah, it is. It really is. It's for you.
Stephanie (35:13)
Yeah, my very first episode was about forgiveness and I relayed my own personal story with that about the murder of my mom. So it is definitely for you and not for the other person. They get that hatred out of your hearts because it
just eats away at you.
Mark Winter (35:30)
right. I'm not suggesting it's easy and breezy, but I am suggesting it's necessary.
Stephanie (35:37)
no, no, yes.
Mark Winter (35:40)
It's not easy and you you're gonna you know,
a lot of us had to process it through tears and anger.
Stephanie (35:48)
Right,
Mark Winter (35:49)
But at some point we have to look at the life of Jesus if we take Jesus seriously and see what he did with forgiveness. Did he withhold forgiveness from anyone? No. He even asked on the cross, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they are doing. Jesus was forgiveness on two legs. He forgave freely.
And generously. And that's what God does. God is a forgiver. And all we have to do is go to him and say, Either help me forgive or forgive me of what I've done. And we are forgiven. That's how great God is.
Stephanie (36:25)
we
talked
about what
forgiveness changed for you, but tell me what it didn't change.
Mark Winter (36:34)
It didn't change the memory of what my dad did to me. I mean, I I still occasionally think about the beatings and the verbal abuse, but it doesn't have a hold on me anymore. those satanic claws that sometimes dig in when you've had hurt in the past are are not have been released because I have the power of the cross in front of me, behind me, to my side, over me and under my feet. I can
Tell Satan that, you know, you can throw that at me all day long. It's it doesn't have any effect on me anymore. I don't I I can't forget it. it was painful, but I have been able to move on because God's grace is more powerful than than evil. And he who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.
okay, forgive me.
Because my mind does this too. But what was you just asked the question. What was the original question? Did I answer it okay for you?
Stephanie (37:37)
He did okay, yes. It was what didn't
Mark Winter (37:40)
Okay.
Stephanie (37:40)
change in your life after forgiveness.
Mark Winter (37:43)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, okay. Yeah, the memory d hasn't changed. my life is not a fairy tale. Just because you forgive somebody or you've been forgiven doesn't mean, you know, you will never get a cavity again or it you'll, you know, look at your checkbook at the end of the month and go, Whoa, how am I gonna make it? I mean, there's still challenges and obstacles in your life after all of that, but you can
live in hope, faith and love. And those three are the greatest things that we can live by. Not not fear and unforgiveness
and hatred.
Stephanie (38:25)
Right, I think you mentioned something like this, but I just want to make sure that we make the important distinction for somebody who's listening and who might be in an unsafe or an abusive relationship. Does forgiving someone mean that you have to reconcile with them or you have to give them access to you again?
Mark Winter (38:48)
I would say by no means. if there is somebody who's abusive or a narcissist and all they think about is themselves and they say, come on, it's come back to me. It's not that bad.
You have to really have some discernment because it's hard. I mean, in my pastoral experience, I've seen both men and women, mostly women, but some men too, who have kept an abusive relationship going and they've split up and then they get back together. And I'm sure a psychologist could give you all the psychological reasons they do that, but
I've had to build boundaries around people. And I knew I was getting healthy when I asked an abusive church member to come to my office one day because I said, we need to talk. There is some animosity going on here. And this guy reminded me of my dad. He was about the same age as my dad when he died.
And he was actually a very faithful church member and actually did some great ministry around there.
The church, but he was just an angry, grumpy, and he was always insulting me and and it was it I finally said, I w I would like to clear the air. He came into my office and I told him exactly why I had called him in and I said, You know, what you're saying to me is abusive. And I had a dad that way, and I didn't like it back then, and I don't like it now. And I would ask
For you to check yourself when you talk to me that way. And
Stephanie (40:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (40:26)
he said, you know what he said to me? He said, Your dad should have abused you even more. That's what he said, exact words.
Stephanie (40:33)
What?
Mark Winter (40:34)
And I said, Well, yeah. I said, you know, I think this conversation is over. I wish you no ill will, and I'm going to give you the right hand of fellowship because you're still a member of this church. And I still want you to do your ministry here, but.
I'm gonna set up a clear boundary with you. And I am going to call you out every time you say something. And and I'm, you know, men a lot of times will insult each other comically. You know, we've done that. We do that, that kind of thing. This wasn't that. It was this angry, abusive
talk. So I knew I was on the healing road, and I
Held out my hand and he refused to shake it. He just stormed out of my office. And it was awkward. And of course I went home and processed it with my wife. And then I had I had a little come
Stephanie (41:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (41:29)
to Jesus meeting. And I felt good after that. I was like, I did what I needed to do. And I
I don't I am not gonna go, I'm not gonna go back and try to make nice with this man.
I'm not gonna
try to get into his good graces. He's just an angry, cranky old dude that apparently just likes to be that way and that's on him. I I will love
Stephanie (41:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (42:00)
him. if he's sick, I'll go visit him in the hospital, but I'm not gonna titanic efforts to try to soothe him in any sort
of way. But yes.
Stephanie (42:12)
My
mom used to say, Kill with kindness, kill with kindness.
Mark Winter (42:16)
kill them with kindness. Yeah. But there are times when you do need to set a clear boundary and say, you know, Jesus did that too. I mean, the rich young ruler, when he said, Sell everything you have, give it to the poor and follow me, the rich young ruler said, you know, basically didn't say anything. He just went, Nah, I don't think I can do that. Walked off. Jesus didn't run after him and go, wait a minute, why don't you sell half of what you have?
and you can follow me Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Jesus didn't do that. He let the guy go. He he he's he told him what he needed to do and he didn't want to do it. So why run after somebody
like that?
Stephanie (42:57)
Can you give
a little
Mark Winter (42:58)
Tough love.
Stephanie (42:59)
understanding maybe for those listening, how can they distinguish difference, forgiveness, reconciliation, and restore truth? How can they distinguish those apart?
Mark Winter (43:20)
Well, again, I think forgiveness can happen without reconciliation. Forgiveness is the basis. It's it's releasing somebody, and it's releasing you with God's help from a weight that is not good for you for your life. Reconciliation is offering a changed relationship with someone. It's offering an olive branch, an offer of peace, an offer of
fellowship, an offer of an open conversation. If somebody refuses that, that's on them. That's you did what God wanted
you to do. You forgave them and then you tried to reconcile with them. And reconciliation is a
Stephanie (44:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (44:05)
ministry of any Christian. So when you attempt to reconcile and somebody doesn't want to reconcile, it's time to move on and let them deal with that. Restore
Stephanie (44:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (44:18)
truth.
Stephanie (44:21)
Trust.
Mark Winter (44:21)
Huh.
Good question. Trust. trust. Yeah. that takes a while to build back
Stephanie (44:28)
Well.
Mark Winter (44:28)
up if you've been hurt by somebody. I I think that after that conversation I had with my dad that I was so elated that there was gonna be if if he had lived after that day, there would have been some tough times and some challenging times where we'd have to I'd have to trust him and
And he'd have to trust me that we wouldn't get all angry and unforgiving
and abusive. So yeah, you you have it takes time, it takes prayer, it takes God working in both hearts to restore that trust. And I think it can be done. It just
Stephanie (45:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (45:08)
most cases in my experience, I I don't haven't seen it work instantaneously. and I think that's okay.
'Cause relationships are a process, right? I've been married forty four years
Stephanie (45:21)
Right.
Mark Winter (45:23)
to know that a relationship takes takes time, effort, sometimes stumbling backwards a little bit, but always trying to move forward.
Stephanie (45:35)
Right, Well let's talk about the book, Tell me about the Wall.
Mark Winter (45:44)
The wall in the book?
Stephanie (45:47)
Yes.
Mark Winter (45:48)
Yeah, I wrote a book about two months ago
So this book's called If I'm the temple of God, why are my pillars cracked? And in in the chapter where I talk about my dad, I talk about this wall that was in the ancient temple courtyard. It was called the Sorig, spelled S O R E G. And my apologies to any biblical scholar if I've mispronounced it, but
It wasn't a big wall, it's four feet high, but there was a very stern sign on it that basically said if any Gentile crosses this wall, he is liable to be executed. So you did not want to cross that wall because beyond it was just for the Jews. And so
I use that as a metaphor of our own relationship, that there was a wall between us that
was as daunting as that wall in Jerusalem, and that it was a strong wall. I felt it was an impenetrable wall, but in Ephesians it it says that Jesus came basically to knock down that wall and bring Jew and Gentile together. So in that reconciliation that my dad and I had, God knocked down that wall and brought us together.
And I think that's
a very apt symbol of what forgiveness and reconciliation can do. Even if you break down the wall through those things, the forgiveness and reconciliation, and that person on the other side runs away from you or just sits there like that, with God's help, you've broken
Stephanie (47:30)
Uh-huh.
Mark Winter (47:31)
that wall and that's what you were supposed to do. And sometimes you have to wait
for that other person.
Sometimes that person will never come back to you. But and I'm not saying that's okay,
Stephanie (47:43)
Excellent.
Mark Winter (47:44)
but I'm saying that sometimes it happens and you can go away knowing in your heart that you did what God required. And that's what I told myself when I picked up the phone that day to call my dad. I thought, well, God, if my dad doesn't accept this the way I I feel like.
would restore our relationship. All I know is that I'm obeying your voice and I'm doing what your son commanded us to do. And that's to forgive
Stephanie (48:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (48:18)
others as you've forgiven us.
Stephanie (48:20)
I love the analogy when you talked about the wall in our interview, it stuck with me that whole night about when you said that your dad built the wall but you were maintaining it, you were keeping it up.
Mark Winter (48:37)
I was. I was adding bricks to it and and you know, polishing it up and building it higher. And
Stephanie (48:43)
Mm, mm.
Mark Winter (48:45)
in one in one thirty minute conversation got obliterated the wall.
God does that sort of thing. If we let him, if we allow him.
Stephanie (48:55)
he does.
I love the title of the book. That is when my husband saw me signing.
Yeah, he said, that's a great title.
Mark Winter (49:08)
Not to brag. I I'm not trying to brag.
But but it just came to me one day and I was like, but that's a great title. So I you know, I don't know if that was just my my fevered brain or if the Lord spoke to me, but I thought, well, if I'm the temple of God, why are my pillars cracked? Why do I make mistakes and why do I have errors of judgment? Why do
Stephanie (49:29)
Right.
Mark Winter (49:30)
I s still sin in this one particular area? And
As I went through the scriptures and started reading again about the temple and the tabernacle, I was like, hey, this would make a really good book, I think. The the sin the symbolism of of all of these things that God told the Jewish people to build this tab to build raise this tabernacle and then build this temple. There's so many rich things to mine from that. And that's how the book came to be.
Stephanie (50:01)
Mm. Mm. when you think about it as architecturally, you know it it doesn't make sense to have cracks in your wall, but when you think about it as a human, it makes very good sense. So you've got these two pictures in your mind.
Mark Winter (50:23)
Yeah. we all
have cracks because we're we're living in sinful finite bodies and our minds are limited and and we still have the tendency to sin. And so we we that's where the Holy Spirit comes in living in us to remind us and convict us of unrighteousness so we can ask God to strengthen us from the inside and wear that armor of God, which by the way is in the book.
because part of the temple in in Solomon's time was an armory, which I'd forgotten about, but weapons were kept there. And so it ties in beautifully to the armor
Stephanie (51:02)
Uh-huh.
Mark Winter (51:02)
of God in Ephesians chapter six, where we put on the full armor of God. And I go through it piece by piece, which isn't original. A lot of scholars have done that, but I put my own spin on that.
Stephanie (51:15)
Well, when you look back now, where do you think or where do you see that God was working before you knew he was working? In hindsight, basically.
Mark Winter (51:32)
in the in the case of my dad or just in a general sort of way?
Stephanie (51:37)
In the case of your dad and then generally if you want to expound upon that.
Mark Winter (51:44)
When I t when I told my parents I was going into the ministry, my mom smiled and said, I knew I had a feeling that was gonna happen when you were a teenager. And I said, Why? We weren't going to church. She said, because of several things. You would you would actually debate your Christian friends. I was on the other side for a while. I was agnostic. I did not disbelieve in God, but I didn't believe it was all that important.
So I'd go in and read my confirmation Bible and, you know, stack up arguments against Christianity. And I think in a in a mysterious sort of way, God was introducing me to the Bible again. And I was getting in depth with a lot
Stephanie (52:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (52:30)
of the verses and passages. I was also listening to some radio preachers at the time. And one of them was kind of a
Kind of a this was back in the 70s when everybody was hip and cool. And this guy was kind of hip and cool.
Stephanie (52:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (52:46)
And I was like, I was fascinated because I was like, wow, this is not like any preacher I've ever heard. This guy is is up on current events and he's funny and smart. And so I I was listening to him. And my mom said, All of that combined, I knew God was working on you, but I didn't want to scare you away by saying, Hey, I think the Lord is calling you into ministry.
So I had to be a prodigal son for a while and wake up one day and say, you know what, in my father's house, there are wonderful things. I need to go to my father's house. And I eventually did.
Stephanie (53:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (53:22)
It took me a while to get there, but I got there. I started reading by the
Stephanie (53:27)
Right.
Mark Winter (53:27)
way, and my wife was the one who who got us back into church. She pretty much insisted in the first year of our marriage, because our marriage was
You know, like a lot of the couples who were in the first or second year of marriage are adjusting to each other and some of the habits that you didn't see while you were dating start surfacing and you're like, Ugh, I
Stephanie (53:51)
Mm.
Mark Winter (53:52)
don't like that about you. And so we were kind of in, you know, rubbing
Stephanie (53:55)
Yeah.
Mark Winter (53:56)
each other the wrong way. And she said, I think we need to go to church. And I thought, You're nuts. And she she kept insisting,
Stephanie (54:03)
Ha ha ha.
Mark Winter (54:04)
and that's when I
That's when I discovered happy wife, happy life. And so I said, okay, I'll go to church, but I'm not gonna
Stephanie (54:11)
Huh.
Mark Winter (54:12)
like it. And we we went to three different churches. We ended up in a contemporary type church with
Stephanie (54:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (54:21)
with young couples all around us, and they were cool and they were fun and friendly. And we joined their Sunday school, and one thing led to another. I got out my old confirmation bible.
I wasn't a Christian at that point. I was going to church, but I still wasn't a Christian. I got out my confirmation Bible. I said, Well, I know there are four gospels. I started at Matthew. Took me a couple of months to get to the end of the of John. And when I finished John,
Stephanie (54:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (54:49)
I joined Thomas and said, My Lord and my God. And that's when I bent the knee of my heart to Christ. So God was plowing the ground that whole time. When I was younger.
Through my
young adult years. And then when I got out my Bible, my wife said, When you got out your Bible, you found your old confirmation Bible up in the attic somewhere and you started reading it. I knew God hooked had hooked you at that point. And I didn't know it.
Stephanie (55:20)
Ha ha ha
Mark Winter (55:21)
I was just like, well, I'm just gonna read this and see what happens. And as I read it, I was like, wow, this Jesus is an amazing man. He said these amazing things. And he's not the the uptight, you know, preacher that I equated uptight preachers with. He was he was a man who walked dusty
Stephanie (55:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (55:42)
robes roads and hobnobbed with sinners and called people to repentance and loved the unlovable and died on a cross and rose from the dead. How could I not put my trust and faith and my whole life and love into that man? And that's what happened.
Stephanie (55:58)
Exactly.
All right,
Mark Winter (56:01)
We're having church now.
Stephanie (56:03)
for well, for the people who are listening and there may be some who are still carrying a wound or still living in the moment of some of the things that we've discussed today or that they've heard in your story. What would you want them to walk away from this podcast with to help them feel hopeful?
Mark Winter (56:36)
Okay. Very good question. yeah, and in my book I I tell people that cracks do not disqualify you from God's love and his purpose for your life. God wants to restore the broken foundations and the cracked pillars, but he is patient with us and he will work with you.
and in you to do that very thing. Cracked pillars can still hold up a beautiful life. And
Stephanie (57:12)
Mm.
Mark Winter (57:13)
I'm an old time Methodist and we preach a lot about sanctification. And that that's a big word. It just means being made holy holier and holier in this life. And by the way, holy doesn't mean you know being a judgmental superpious Christian, being holy means set apart for God. So you set your life, your whole life, not just Sunday mornings, you set your whole life apart for to to receive God's love and to show God's love. And those wounds will start healing moment by moment, day by day, week by week. You'll still have scars. Jesus still has scars in heaven. The Lamb was crucified and
Stephanie (57:57)
Mm.
Mark Winter (57:58)
John says in Revelation, he a lamb who appeared to be slain. So I think Jesus still bears the marks of crucifixion in heaven to remind us of the great, immeasurable love he has for us. So we s we'll still have wounds, but they won't jab us every time we think about why what caused them.
Stephanie (58:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (58:23)
And just remember,
Stephanie (58:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Winter (58:25)
I know it's a trite phrase, but it's so true.
God loves you deeply, unconditionally, fiercely. And I can tell you that because while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That proves his love toward us.
Stephanie (58:46)
Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much. And thank you for trusting us with this part of your story and for joining us on Glory and Grit today.
Mark Winter (58:55)
Thank you, Stephanie. I hope we've encouraged some people out there today and given them hope.
Stephanie (59:02)
That's always my prayer that whoever needs to hear each guest will find that episode so that they can relate and learn from them what they are missing in their own lives. So thank you so much.
Mark Winter (59:15)
Amen. Amen. Thank you for what you do.
Stephanie (59:18)
There's a line Mark said near the end of our conversation that I keep coming back to. Cracked pillars can still hold up a beautiful life. I love that. Because forgiveness doesn't rewrite Mark's childhood. It didn't make the abuse go away.
It didn't erase the memories. and as we talked about it today, forgiveness doesn't mean you have to reconcile with someone who is unsafe or give someone access to your life simply because you've forgiven them. But forgiveness can change what those wounds are allowed to carry into your future. Mark described the wall between him and his father as a wall that his father had built, but one Mark eventually realized that he had been helping to maintain. And in one conversation, after years of hurt, God gave them an opportunity neither of them knew would be their last.
your story may not end that way. The person you need to forgive may be gone.
They may not be willing to reconcile. Reconciliation may not be healthy or safe. And restore trust when it's possible may take time.
But maybe the invitation isn't to pretend the wall was never built. Maybe is to ask God which bricks you no longer have to carry.
Your scars don't disqualify you. Your cracks don't make you unusable. And healing doesn't always mean that the thing that hurt you disappears. Sometimes healing means it no longer gets to decide who you are.
Until next time, my friend, keep looking for God's glory, even in the middle of your grit.
Bye now.
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